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epic.Management

Guest daftchip

Wow what a day!...

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Guest daftchip

Well firstly I'm hoping that some of you guys might have a bit of advice for me Very Happy secondly just some people who I can rant at cause I'm ready to fly off the rails....

It all starts on a misty foggy Saturday morning, car is desperately due its MOT as it runs out the same, I get it all checked and failed... A couple of hundred quid I could do without spending right now.. part suppliers have shut at this point and theres nothing more I can do to get it through its MOT.

I then decide to let work know ASAP and ring the only person in a management positions mobile number and explain I can't make it into work on the Monday morning due to me having no car with an MOT, I said however if absolutely nessacery, I can get the train but will need a day off at least one day that week to get it sorted and I'm told yeah thats fine he will let my line manager know.

I text him after wards just to make sure I don't have to ring up on the Monday morning and I recieve the reply "yeah I'm sure I'll let him know, don't need to ring in"

Got my car all sorted Monday for the work to be done and I'm told it would be completed Wednesday... So this morning I spend £29 and 3 hours train journey to work making 2 changes to get to work 15 minutes early still! Then get dragged into a meeting to say that due to the unauthorised absense I will be required to attend a disciplinary hearing with view to dismissal for my blantant failure to follow a company procedure of letting a line manager know of my situation and my proposed plan of action with a confirmation of this action being ok.... (I'm pretty sure I followed that to the line and did it 2 days early of all things.)

Having not been at the company for 12 months, I'm now subject to instant dismissal, with no notice period. No view of taking legal action of unfair dismissal and a disciplinary meeting at 2pm tomorrow exactly 23 hours before the meeting is due to take place.

After spending weekends doing work and having EVERY single job I've completed out of the door on time and recieving letter of thanks on my last 2 jobs for speedy completion with the best build quality they have had in years (I spent a Saturday unpaid filing metal and correcting wiring problems and improving the design). Along with the added 'promised' training courses which get cancelled the night before and having my induction 5 months after starting at the company along with my health and safety training a week after this, I think I should have a pretty good arguement, but they're refusing to hear anything about my circumstances or my record of completed work so far.

Quite frankly I'm pretty much the most pissed off I think I've ever been right now and have no idea where I stand on this situation, have little/no time to prepare for the disciplinary procedure and the 2 people I requested to accompany me to the meeting are not allowed to come (first one because its the guy I texted and the second because he handed his notice in on Monday because of the companys poor man management skills and is leaving in 4 weeks time)

Personally think they've

a) not got enough work to employ me any longer

B) the guy who I texted didn't tell them and is covering his arse

c) don't want to put me through the training they promised to make me a fully fledged project manager in the next 5 months.

and I think I should get my letter of resignation ready...

fucking brilliant day!

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Well for a start you should have the texts between the member of management and yourself so you have proof you did inform someone, use them to your advantage.

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hmmmm yeah as Sakey says use the texts to show you did let someone know but be prepared for the come back "it has to be the line manager you tell" i know that in my job if i need to be off work i have to ring the studio manager directly it doesnt count if i ring the style director (my superior) and get him to let them know. so watch out for that stupid little rule.

Definitely argue your case though. It is a little far fetched to take you to instant dismissal. Surely written warning is first. good luck for your meeting hope it doesn't end in doom.

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Guest MastacheifBOX

Hmm pretty sure they are in the wrong here but its been a long time since i was involved in HR, What industry are you in and are there any unions?

Citizens advice bureau is a good place to start i feel they will give you the best advice, it sounds to me like they are just using this as an excuse to bin you. Its very difficult to dismiss people, you are i believe entitled to take witnesses into disciplinary if they refuse, then perhaps refuse to attend the meeting until you receive them denying you witnesses in writing.

End of the day for now you best port of call i can recommend is CAB (citizens advice)

Also whats your contract say about this?

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if theres a union rep have a talk with him (even if youre not in the union) and take him to the meeting

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What ever you do ... Do NOT resign. If you do that you're making it easy for them.

Your phone records are the key to this and you should use them as evidence. I know the information will be on your phone but can you get an itemised bill online? You need to be able to show:

a) The call and duration to your colleague + the text message

B) On your phone the text message you sent him

If you can do this it will show negligence from your colleague. It might no be a pleasant environment afterwards but you need to try and keep your job and leave on your own terms, not theirs and certainly not because of some prat that's dropped you in the mire.

I would also spend some time compiling details (it appears you already have here) of where you have gone above and beyond the call of duty. Show them what you're worth!

The problem with current employment law (implemented by the Tories and to their shame never recinded by Labour :x ) means that anyone with under 2 years employment is easy to get rid of. Does your place of work have a recognised union? Is there a rep there you can speak to for advice? Even if you're not a member of a union (if not, why not?!) and there is a union rep available they might be able to provide some friendly advice.

I'm fairly sure that for disciplinary measures you should be allowed support from union rep or colleague. I don't think you should go into this alone and if they're adamant of hauling you in ask to have someone with you to be on your side. Union support would be ideal but failing that a trusted colleague.

Don't go in there alone.

Fight you corner calmly .. don't lose your rag like I did on Friday :oops:

Good luck sir, thinking of you tomorrow.

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Guest MastacheifBOX

Have they invited you to the disciplinary in writing through the post?

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Guest MastacheifBOX

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461

I contacted these guys a few times during my redundancy consultation couldnt hurt to give them a call

Do I have the right to be accompanied at a disciplinary meeting?

Workers have a statutory right to be accompanied by a fellow worker or trade union official where they are required or invited by their employer to attend certain disciplinary or grievance hearings.

They must make a reasonable request to their employer to be accompanied.

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Thanks Cheif!

I knew he was entitled to have someone there, that's a great find.

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Guest MastacheifBOX

I seem to remember that they have to formally via post to you home invite you to a disciplinary but i cant find it.

Really would be best to speak to a professional, fight this off then find a new job.

Also:

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1073793802&type=RESOURCES

and:

http://www.employmentlaw.co.uk/my_employer_has_started_a_disciplinary_what_should_i_do.asp

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Guest daftchip

thanks guys it really does mean alot, had to bite my tongue a few times and just sit there and take it a little as they would not discuss anything with me at the time which infuriated me a little bit and now I find that coincidentally that the person who dropped me in this is not in work now for 2 days taking annual leave!

I work as a Electrical Engineer as a fully fledged project engineer/trainee project manager and so far every promise of training, incentives and such like have been not met on every occasion.

I started this job after training as a panel wireman for 3 years and doing 1 years design and have picked up the job to where I am now with NO training to a level where I can take on my own jobs and project manage them through skills I got by purely reading HUGE books from the library and picking bits up off people.

Mastercheif, they gave me a letter today and thats all I'm getting. They wouldn't be able to post it to me if they tried due to the hearing being so close which in my eyes is in no way fair as it gives me 1 night to prepare my case. However they don't know that under scrutiny along with the aid of cigarettes and monster I'll bring a massive case to them and still manage to make it in work like I do every day 15-30 minutes early cleanly shaven with a fresh suit :D

My companies very strange, I've been told any grievances I have in the work place have to be directed to guess who... Yes the guy whos conducting my disciplinary hearing who appears to want me out since they dropped the biggest contract my company did and my specialist area (power station switch gear)...

I'm not gonna resign yet. I'm gonna keep a copy of a letter of resignation for when they say due to this were dismissing you and I'm gonna cut across them and say sorry heres my letter of resignation I shall be leaving with immediate effect if that is ok with the company..

Was uber annoying when they wouldn't look at my texts and conveniently the answer machine message to the guy who dropped me in the mire when I rang him 30 mins before the said conversation took place has now been deleted :s

I asked for advice on union representatives which he made me aware of did exist, for example who they were and how to contact them. He said this is for me to research and contact in my own time! however how on gods earth am I supposed to contact them in time for my meeting tomorrow at 2pm.

End of the day this all sounds too coincidental for it to be purely about Monday and I'll dig to the bottom of it, even if it means me spending every minute I have free trying to figure this one out.

I'm not too fussed about the job in general, got one waiting in the wings at Barloworld doing the same job which they contacted me about 2 or 3 times now. I just wanna get to the bottom of this so they can't do this to other people who they think are push overs

but once again thanks for the advice guys and if anyone can add it would be greatly appreciated

signing out a very angry daft!

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Guest MastacheifBOX

read those link they have to give you ample time to prepare and you have a right to view their evidence.

This is dodgy, and i believe you'd have them for unfair dismissal easily, i cant see your point in resigning as you cant appeal and screw them over if you do that, years and years ago i had a company do this to me turned out i could have taken them to the cleaners but i was co-erced into resigning.

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Guest Zenith

Personally I reckon you should tell your manager in the morning that you're unhappy with the time given for the hearing and ask for it to be rescheduled. You also can't rely on the guy you spoke with at the weekend. He's dropped you in it, time to return the favour.

Go back to you original contract and also read your company's grievance procedure line by line.

It is printed in black and white. There is no grey area or implied parts. I lost a court case because the judge took one clause and interpreted it literally. Legal proceedings go on facts and what is written down.

You are entitled to take ANYONE with you into the disciplinary hearing, they don't even have to be an employee of the company. I know someone who was told in the afternoon they were up for a disciplinary in the morning. They then turned up in the morning with their solicitor... who promptly made mincemeat of the management for not following their own grievance procedure and breaking employment law.

I know you don't have the time to do that now, but the speed with which you're being processed says to me that the manager has been waiting for an excuse to get rid of you and is using this to get you out of the door.

Oh yeah, your grievance procedure probably says something about appealing the decision. Have a letter written out ready to hit them with the appeal immediately and if necessary take it over the manager's head. That's what most grievance procedures say to do if the manager is part of the problem.

Finally if they dismiss you tomorrow, walk into a solicitor's office and ask them about constructive dismissal due to not following the company's grievance procedure.

Go get 'em! :)

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Guest Booti

Someone may correct me here, as i'll admit i am not fully up to speed on all this, but i am pretty sure you will have issues with Unemployment benefits if you resign.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but if you need to make claims for any period between your current job and the next one (whether you have one lined up or not) i seem to remember you are not entitled to anything if you have quit your job (as in resigned)

Also go to HR first thing and demand a copy of the staff handbook (or whatever they base your contract on). Read the grievence procedure line for line, word for word and if anything is out of place to what they have done, throw that at them in the meeting.

Just a thought, and as everyone said, go get 'em.

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I'm not gonna resign yet. I'm gonna keep a copy of a letter of resignation for when they say due to this were dismissing you and I'm gonna cut across them and say sorry heres my letter of resignation I shall be leaving with immediate effect if that is ok with the company..

This would not be good for you - don't do it.

If you are dismissed / fired / sacked from a job then you end put with certain legal rights which you don't get if you resign / quit. Obviously the specifics of this are very complicated but the general message is that it is better to be dismissed / fired / sacked than to quit (unless you already have a new job lined up to walk in to).

Someone may correct me here, as i'll admit i am not fully up to speed on all this, but i am pretty sure you will have issues with Unemployment benefits if you resign.

This is correct. No unemployment benefits for the first 6 months (maybe longer, don't know the exact details) if you voluntarily give up your job. I've had employees quit and then received a phone call a few days later asking to confirm that they were fired

if they dismiss you tomorrow, walk into a solicitor's office and ask them about constructive dismissal due to not following the company's grievance procedure.

This is good advice - solicitors won't charge you for asking questions about this, so just walk in and see what the experts say.

Fight your corner, show them your text messages and stand your ground. Good luck mate.

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Guest daftchip

Well I've come in this morning to work with a decided plan of action.

Firstly I asked for more time to prepare my case ie. move the date further away so I can collect my evidence, they didn't seem to happy and said they would email me with a revised date which was 24 hours later.

Secondly I'm seeing how the meeting goes tomorrow and I'm not going to resign under any circumstances.

I've compiled all of my evidence with regards to phone calls and text messages and noted down how I feel that this is unfair given the amount of time I gave notice from the date and time that my car problems occured and shown how I tried to contact staff several times to let them know. And detailed all messages with them still backed up on my phone showing his exact words, mobile number with a valid time stamp along with a bill printed off from o2 website showing them exactly when the text messages and phone calls were made.

Thirdly I asked for a written copy of my contract, grievance procedure and all previous warnings on my record if any as I have no knowledge of any to date.

Fourthly - I've asked to be accompanied by an employee who is also disgruntled with the companies man management skills who has since handed his notice in because I felt that he would say without fear of reprisals if he felt I was being unfairly treated or bullied in this situation especially as he was pretty much ousted in similar fashion but was lucky enough to find a new job before it went much further than how it is now.

Fifthly - I asked who I would raise any grievances with in this situation as the person I raise grievances with is the person conducting said interview and was told it would be his superior which doesn't help me much as they're two peas in a pod.

And lastly - I complied a file with over 20 pages of examples of dates given, and the dates my work has been completed (everyone was early) along with the letters of thanks from two customer for a superior build quality and mentioned the gift of chocolates for myself which I gave to the Engineering team as a whole. I updated my CV which I put in my file to collate what I feel are my key skill areas and taken examples of my work where I've gone above and beyond what was expected of me including taking on work which was never mine in the first place due to other engineers being overworked!

Not quite sure if they know what they're taking on with trying to bump me off this way. I've taken down the CAB number and will be ringing on my dinner break today to find out what I'm entitiled to and what my rights are in this situation bearing in mind it's a tricky situation with regards to my contract being a probabtionary period but I'm not sure of the length of probabtionary period untill my copy of my contract comes through.

After speaking to my mum last night, she is making an appointment for next Monday with a solicitor if this goes any further to find any 'loop holes' or places they haven't furfilled all of the criteria for disciplinary procedures along with anyway shape or form I can prove constructive dismissal or discrimination be it due to whatever reason.

Just wanna say thank you for all your help guys, I sat there writing all of that last night feeling like I was gonna have to sit down and take a shafting on this one because they got rid of the contract where my skills are specifically trained. But I'm gonna fight this if not just to keep my job but to make sure that the other Engineers can't be treated this way by an incompetant individual who has a severe case of "Little Man Syndrome"

//daft

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Guest MastacheifBOX

ask the cab if the person carrying out the disciplinary are permitted to end your employment i remember a successful appeal by an employee as the incorrect person did the sacking.

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What a silly situation blown out of proportion due to a misunderstanding.

I'd charge into the meeting, punch the manager in the face, defecate on the table and swear at anyone younger than you present. Then show them the texts that prove your case. Sorted.

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What a silly situation blown out of proportion due to a misunderstanding.

I'd charge into the meeting, punch the manager in the face, defecate on the table and swear at anyone younger than you present. Then show them the texts that prove your case. Sorted.

I personally feel this to be the best course of action.

It shows how mature you are, along with a good understanding of people skills.

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Good luck chip - Wish i'd seen this earlier. Part of my job is i'm chairman of Marks and Spencers Business Involvement Group (Which is there version of a union) . Judging from the evidence you have i reckon you should be okay. I see similar stories all the time at M&S infact i got into a spot of bother myself the other week for coming in late when it was snowing. Unfortunatly in this day and age if your face don't fit they will gun for you.

If you need any advice i'm GFM|JoeShow on irc. Good luck!

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What a silly situation blown out of proportion due to a misunderstanding.

I'd charge into the meeting, punch the manager in the face, defecate on the table and swear at anyone younger than you present. Then show them the texts that prove your case. Sorted.

I personally feel this to be the best course of action.

It shows how mature you are, along with a good understanding of people skills.

Rofl, +1. Hope it all works out for you Daft, my missus got let go of from Starbucks for stupid reasons but couldn't do anything because she'd only been there a little while.

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Guest timmy

Dave just apply for siemens! We're after 2 repair specialists for valuestream 1, if you want the details just message me. Think its like 20k-21k

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